The Indigenous Grift | Jim McMurtry
Recorded: October 25, 2026 | Host: Robert Vaughan
Jim McMurtry:
And I went and stood in busy intersections where all sorts of people, sometimes on by highway and being threatened, and people getting other cars and running toward me, all sorts of things, just with “No land acknowledgments.” And I didn’t bend.
Robert Vaughan:
Our guest today is Jim McMurtry. Hello, Jim.
Jim McMurtry:
Hello, nice to be with you, Robert.
Robert Vaughan:
Jim is a longtime British Columbian educator and an author and a political candidate. He’s become known nationally after he was suspended, then eventually fired for comments he made challenging official doctrine on residential schools and the 2021 Kamloops claims as outrageous as they are.
He holds a master’s degree in educational history with a focus on Indian education policy. So, Jim, could you please tell us your story? Perhaps beginning with the troubles that you had back in May of 2021 while teaching in Abbotsford.
Jim McMurtry:
Well, I would say during the time I did my master’s, I worked with Robert Carney, who was Mark Carney’s father. And he only had positive things to say about residential schools, not that they were perfect, but there was it was a good idea. How do we make them better? Because otherwise, these kids, the 15% of the children who wouldn’t have, who were not, were unable to get to a nearby day school or have a school on their reserve, had no other choice. I afterwards did a PhD at the University of Toronto in educational theory and with related subjects. So I felt when I was teaching in Abbotsford all these years later, that I was uncommonly fit to speak up because they were, as you know, and they were lying to the kids about 215 child remains bodies found in an apple orchard in Kamloops. And when I said that, that was the end of me. I haven’t taught since. And I’m still fighting.
So in the recent election, I ran for trustee as well as, because there are dual elections in British Columbia, as well as for MLA. I was just continuously accosted by people, including today. I was called from a sleep on the nearby reserve, and just some really choice words to say for me. And I’ve always tried to take a gentlemanly approach, and just say that for me, I’m just trying to get at the truth. So that’s a very serious thing when teachers are required to lie to students.
Robert Vaughan:
For sure, and they call you a denier. And anybody who questions the official doctrine on the Kamloops issue is called a denier. But from what I see and from my perspective, they’re the ones who are denying the truth.
Jim McMurtry:
Well, thank you. And they were talking as well, Murray Sinclair talked about as many as 25,000 or more kids that were missing and disappeared from these schools. 25,000. But we know the number is zero, because there was never any parent saying my child never came back.
There was, of course, no evidence of murder, and the Truth and Reconciliation Report never talked about murder. So it’s just really quite extraordinary because Canada changed after that. The federal government brought in UNDRIP, as you know, and a very serious, to me, demonstration of how important this was to the virtue signals at the top of all our institutions. They put the flag down for 161 days. The second longest time in history was 10 days for our beloved Queen Elizabeth II. So this is something that was preposterous, not only in what it was saying, but the extent that it continues to exist.
And then a year later, there was a vote in Parliament and unanimously passed, in which it was said that Canada was a genocidal state.
Robert Vaughan:
Just a bit of background, then, Jim, if I could. If I’ve set the stage for those who may not know about the Kamloops, let me call it a hoax. Because without any bodies, it is a hoax. And certainly a lot of the claims are outrageously and false.
So back in, let’s see, May of 2021, an anthropologist by the name of Sarah Beaulieu, if I’m pronouncing her name correctly, from the University of the Fraser Valley, did some ground penetrating radar, a survey of an old apple orchard at the Kamloops residential Indian school. And came up with 215 anomalies. Not saying what they were, but they were simply anomalies. Now you can have an anomaly from your septic tank field. You can have an anomaly if you go into your backyard and dig up the dirt and then put it back together, from your old vegetable patch.
That’s an anomaly. And so what people did with that, including the chief, Rosanne Casimir said was that is confirmation of the remains of 215 children who were students of the Kamloops Indian Residential School. Some of the press, now, if people go to your channel, they’ll see a collage of press with outrageous claims right off the bat that this was a mass grave, that these were bodies of murdered children by the nuns and priests who ran the residential school.
Outrageous falsehoods, simply from ground penetrating radar anomalies. I can understand why you, as an educator, an educated man with children in your charge, would when this is brought up in school as it was, they brought it up, you didn’t, from what I understand. You would simply say the facts, which is that most of these children died from natural causes, meaning disease. Tuberculosis was rampant at that time.
So I can understand why you would do that. And I feel for you having to go through the nonsense you’ve had to go through for simply first of all, expressing an opinion, and two, an opinion that seems to be substantiated by fact and countering hype and emotion and hatred and violence. This is getting so bad that you, when you go out on the street with your “No land acknowledgments” claim poster, you’re flanked by police, not because of what you’re saying, but because your opponents are known to be violent.
That’s my little spiel. I’m sorry if I don’t want to take up your time.
Jim McMurtry:
You know what, Robert, to be honest with you. I love what you say and love listening to your very articulate and you know what you’re talking about. If I could just add a couple of things, it was just one non-Indigenous woman who did this GPR scan of this area. There were never any children that died at the school, or died in any residential school and in a normal circumstance.
It was just such a rare thing. And the reason being is if children had a disease, like Spanish flu or earlier smallpox, particularly as you said, tuberculosis, they’d be put in a hospital. And some would be if it was, they had very little no chance of recovery, then they may be put back in their home reserve at their home. And but the people they didn’t have people sitting in a classroom doing math right up to the moment they died. There is no evidence that the Kamloops Indian Residential School, they said the, and this is what happened after the Truth and Reconciliation Commission ended in 2015.
They transformed into it’s called the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation. And they said that there were 51 kids that died at the school. And I looked at the list, and there were four repetitions, so there was 47, and only two died at the school, and that was an unusual thing, but they didn’t die anything to do with the school.
One died nearby playing a game called Hangman with other boys, and sadly sick asphyxiated himself, and the other his name was Adrian George, and the other was a girl named Pearl Joe who drowned in the river, and then a few years later, they built an Olympic-sized swimming pool at the school. This is a school where there’s international trips, and where there’s dance clubs and reunions and 200 different sports teams over its life. It had all sorts of facilities, it had a farm, had all these things.
It also had the pool, and the pool was again, so no other child would die. The men and women, the Oblate priests and the Sisters of St. Anne who worked at that school, were as one would imagine people who were dedicating their lives to help these kids get a leg up in a modern world. And most of them wouldn’t have had any other opportunity if it wasn’t for the residential school. No, some in Kamloops lived on the reserve.
So they didn’t even sleep in the residences. So a lot of residential schools, there were not only non-Indigenous kids, children of teachers, for example, but there were also kids who were day students. Another thing is the people working at these residential schools, of which there were 143 over 113 years, the majority were Indigenous in most of these schools because the cooks, the cleaners, the janitors, the residents supervisors, the people that worked in the farm, the people who, there were obviously this is employment for the local population. The only 15% of the children at a residential school, sorry, the school age population were out of residentials, 15%.
So most they did find day schools. And for a long time, people were saying no, it’s a third. No, it’s it was 15% on average. And many of them were orphans, their kids that didn’t have the necessities of life or who are being abused, or, other things that were maybe in some cases the family just couldn’t cope. They could have and there was no birth control, as you know, for till fairly recent generations, and they could have had 15-20 children. These residential schools were child services before government began. And now in Manitoba, 90% of the kids that are seized by our government are Indigenous, 90% today, and no one’s fighting about that because the Indigenous people today know that those children needed to be put in foster homes because they were not receiving what they needed to be. And governments, if they don’t do that, get sued.
Robert Vaughan:
Now, your father was an illustrious man and has a great reputation in Ontario. Anybody who has heard of the name Roy McMurtry knows about your father and chief justice in Ontario, attorney general, solicitor general, involved in the patriation of the constitution, but a red Tory.
And so how does your father’s politics compare to yours? What would he, if he was alive today, have to say about this SOGI, sexual orientation and gender identity in the classroom? What would you have to say about you professing a simple opinion and being fired for it? Free speech issues. How has his generation of politics as a red Tory in Ontario under the Davis PCs, Freudian slip there, compared to yours.
Jim McMurtry:
Yeah, my father, unless he was career in other ways as well, if I may say he was the high commissioner for Canada, the ambassador to Britain,
Robert Vaughan:
Order of Canada,
Jim McMurtry:
Order of Canada, chairman of the CFL football league, he had various roles, and he worked into his 80s. So he was a bit of a larger than life figure. It was hard for his six children to feel that they could get out from his shadow. But he was an incredibly nice father. And I never feared my father, but after I was walked out of my job for almost two years, I lied to him and lied to my mother. I didn’t want him and my mother who were on their deathbeds to know that I had been fired.
I didn’t want that to be the last image they had of me. So it affected me. One of my father found out I was in the front page, I was in the National Post on a number of occasions, and once I was on the front page, and friends talked to him about it, so he learned about it. And I sensed that he probably knew about it long before then and just never let on and just felt sorry for me. And he didn’t really understand the issues, for he was a lot smarter than I was, but when you get older, it’s kind of hard to move with the times.
I know that I’m my age is, if I have something wrong with my computer, I actually teenager. So I mean, there is that sort of thing that there’s things I know really well that none of my students know, like literature, for example, or history. But my father was sort of like that as well, that a lot of the lore, a lot of his knowledge was passing with him and values, and an example of being of our first prime minister, Sir John A. Macdonald, that was something that my father would literally take, he was a very big man, the next football guy, and just really sort of a strong presence. And he when I told him about and showed pictures of him what was happening to John A. Macdonald, which is as you know, there’s for up until recently, was in a box everywhere in Canada or destroyed or in the bottom of a river. He was so upset with that. He didn’t understand how Canada could become like the Taliban Bamiyan, Afghanistan in 2001, how we could treat their most monumental figures, because I guess in some way, and this is maybe you can see it as a failing of my father, but in some ways he kind of felt that he was larger in life because he was really a well-loved politician and public figure. And then again, even before he went into politics, he was a football guy and was a high profile lawyer, as was his father.
So he kind of thought, is this me? Is this what’s going to happen to the memorials and so forth, building situate in his name? Is this what’s going to happen? Is he going to be judged?
There’s some sort of evil racist. And so obviously, I’m proud immensely proud of my father. We battled from time to time. My father was the kind of guy that just loved talk politics. So it was hard to hit on every topic and not disagree in some things, but he was just such a loving father. He, bark hard. And if I was talking too much and he was tired as he was in his later years and lying in bed and not able to move, every once in a while, he’d just all of a sudden get upset with me because I’d said something that was and to him that was wrong, and it probably was wrong, but and then it was oh, I love you, I love you, Jim, stuff. But he was true, and he said to me about my case. He said, You he never said, Jim, you’re my son, I’m gonna support you. I’m always going to agree with you.
It was never like that as a parent. He was a judge. You get at the truth, and the fact that even today, when I walk around, walked in these elections, Robert, that there are all these people that have these false notions of Canadian history. And the most obvious one is residential schools. How could you think of and all these schools offered freely over all this time that were treaty rights for Indigenous people?
Kids have a right to go to school, the parents recognize that. Where they were in some cases there were waiting lists. There were cases of the schools not wanting to close. They didn’t want the communities, didn’t want their schools to close.
So how could we simply paint it all in a negative brush? Of course, there were things that I’m sure that were bad and but any school back in time, and any school today. But this simplistic black and white framing and you see it in schools with the DEI, the white Europeans were bad in all these ways, and everybody else is a victim, which is to me is as insulting, insulting to them because Indigenous people, for example, if you know them historically, they’re incredibly proud and fierce and tough people. This idea of them being victims is a recent creation. So yeah, I hope I answered that well.
Robert Vaughan:
You did, you did. And it’s quite right to be, of course, proud of your father’s accomplishment. He was his memory lives on. And he will go down in history for his accomplishments. Now, you’ve actually written a book about your travails with the school board and your suspension and firing. Do you want to tell us about it? The Scarlet Lesson.
Jim McMurtry:
Well, you’re delighted to do it, but if I could just say one more thing, that so my father and I, we, I think in most homes, you look to your parents and you go when you get a little bit older, you go, and you think of what you do for your own children, and you go, they did that for me. I mean, it’s the natural thing is to, I think, as you get older to idolize what you had as parents. Not everybody is lucky. I guess I was luckier than some, but I think most people realize their parents are pretty great people.
And so I just with regard to my father, he cared, we cared so much for history because his mother was a self-taught historian. She didn’t have a chance to go to university. He ended up going and graduating at age 67. And so later in life, and she just wasn’t given an opportunity.
That was the age. And so my father went to university and he studied before going to law school. He was a history major. And so what was really important for my father is you again, you get it right. And his contribution to the patriation of the constitution, which was in 1981, all the talks, and it was formally signed in 1982, that included the Charter of Rights, the frames and so forth. So it was a the big part of Canadian history.
And it said in textbooks that I read, and including textbooks that were in my classroom, that I had textbooks that referred to my father, which is kind of exciting for me. And one of the things that it was said almost nothing, there’s one little paragraph. And it said that Chrétien and Romanow and McMurtry, there was an impasse, and it looks like it wasn’t going to work, and the provinces weren’t going to agree in the end, nine of ten did, and that was enough.
Quebec not. And it said that they the three people, different ethnicities, one Ukrainian in the West, one French Canadian, my dad, in English, did whatever, and different parts of the country, different backgrounds, linguistically, culturally, and ethnically, and they got together and they came up with a solution, and then it was able to pass. And it said they stayed up late at night drinking coffee. My father was bothered by that because it was untrue. My father never drank coffee in the evening. I don’t know how people go to sleep if they did that.
My father was a big scotch drinker, and so I just thought it was interesting. Why can’t where would that have come from? Why would people change history in that way? I mean, that was part of John A. Macdonald as well.
A lot of our a lot of the important deals in Canadian history were facilitated by liquor, by people being at ease or whatever. But why do people, why is it in the woke world of today that you feel that you have a right? It’s called with part of presentism, that if the world isn’t in your making in your imagination, and then the which are the past, then you have a right to change it and deny everybody that comes after you of knowing history as it really was.
Robert Vaughan:
It’s funny that you bring that up because Brian Peckford has disagreed that the kitchen cabinet, as it was called, actually was the moment of the group coming together, the nine of the ten. He puts himself at the central as a compromising figure in that debate. But I don’t want to get into that too much because there’s so much else to cover, and I know our time is limited, but I think that maybe we should come back to this if you’re willing to put it.
But talk about that, yeah. Your book.
Jim McMurtry:
Okay, so very quickly. So there was as you know, the scarlet letter, a woman by mistake, she ends up in a relationship with a man while being married, she thought her husband was long dead or in another continent, and she was forced to wear scarlet letter.
Robert Vaughan:
Nathaniel Hawthorne, was it not?
Jim McMurtry:
Hawthorne, that’s right.
Robert Vaughan:
And the A stood for adulteress.
Jim McMurtry:
That’s right. And so the moment I said something against the narrative, then I thought that I had a letter on me, that I was done. But there was no way of getting it. My union was completely against me, my regulatory body, the government and other ways, and certainly my employer, that there was nobody on my side, and I was never gonna get work again in the public school system, and that’s true, and I never will. So in part because I’m getting too old for it, but they just can’t believe I said what I did. And of course, 10 years from now, if this comes up, people are gonna go, how could people ever lie to kids for a decade for two decades about all these things. The idea of bearing false witness against men and women in all these residential schools, of which there were probably thousands, thousands of people being remembered as murderers without a speck of evidence.
So this is serious. So I wrote my book is just simply play on that scarlet lesson. It was one lesson, and then and I was done.
And so that was my black spot that the pirates put on somebody that they were going to eliminate. It’s just a matter of time, a regulatory body is going to take away my certificate. So it’s been a long fight, it’s been five and a half years. I’m still fighting my cases in the I don’t think my book tells my case, so I don’t think there’s anything I need more to say there, but by my cases in the Supreme Court of British Columbia. And it’s being argued by people pro bono in the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, and it took me over five years to get that help. So up until then, I without a salary to time that my wife with cancer can’t work, but we weren’t quite sure how we were going to do a lot of things.
And I certainly couldn’t afford lawyers. And yet it all kind of worked out for us. And I think the example that I’m setting, I hope I’m setting, if anybody, for those that know about me, is that I said when I learned that I was fired for this, and everyone was saying, this you can’t ever criticize, you’re suggesting Indigenous elders are liars and all these terrible things. How dare you? You’re evil, you’re wicked. And unless I retract what I said, then it’s the hill I was gonna die on. And then I made up my mind very quickly on because I’m older, it’s easier to do things when you’re older. That it would also be the hill in which I did my best teaching.
And so my book has sold over 900 copies, and I’ve had many articles and I’ve been in books and I’ve contributed to one big book recently called Dead Wrong, which is the successor of Grave Error. So I’ve had greater influence by saying no, I’m not going to bend. I’m going to stick to the truth.
And most recently, and thank you for mentioning it. I did something that a lot of people thought I was crazy, is I insisted with my campaign team, which is small anyway, that for much of the campaign I was going to be by myself. And I went and stood in busy intersections where all sorts of people, sometimes I’m by highway and being threatened, people getting other cars and running toward me, all sorts of things, just with “No land acknowledgments.” And I didn’t bend. And I think I ended up getting a lot of respect for that. And you talked earlier about the fact that with land acknowledgements when I run politically on three different occasions that I two of them I walked out and most recently I turned my back on it. And
I’m just saying, no, I’m just never in my life. Am I going to do a land acknowledgement?
Robert Vaughan:
You’ve called them undemocratic and factually misleading.
Jim McMurtry:
So this again goes against the denialism. I mean, you’re looking at land acknowledgments.
Robert Vaughan:
We have them here too in New Brunswick. Every part of the country is covered by different agreements with the Crown, dating back quite a long time, hundreds of years sometimes.
Here it’s the Peace and Friendship Treaty, I believe it’s called. And people get it wrong all the time because I looked into it when they’re saying that you’re on unceded territory of such and such tribe who have title to it. True, they have never ceded title to some lands in the Maritimes, but that doesn’t mean that they have a right to your house, because you have title to that in that particular instance, and all land in Canada is governed by the Crown, all of it, even the reserves have been reserved for the I call them Paleoamerids. They’re not Indigenous. Believe it or not, there’s actually one chief out there I saw saying that they sprung from the land that they’re in that’s what the word Indigenous means from the Latin.
And I was thinking to myself, this is not right. I mean, we’ve gone through native, I’m native. I was born in Canada, so I’m native. We’ve gone through Indian, a bit of a misnomer. We’ve gone through Indigenous, factually incorrect.
So I said, give me a word. Give me a word that will identify who they are. They are the descendants of the ancient peoples who came from Beringia to colonize the Americas, which was uninhabited at the time. So Paleoamerid, it means descendant of Paleo Ancient.
You and I are Neoamerids. And the only other people who may be Canadian or who may not fit into those two terms are the people who just got off the plane in Toronto or Vancouver and are becoming Canadian citizens. They’re neither the descendants of the ancient or the new immigrants. We’re all the same race. The human race. And this distinction of, well, we were sprung from the land. This is nonsense, and we have to get over it if we’re ever going to survive as a nation, and which I argue is probably never going to survive anyway. It’ll fall apart.
Jim McMurtry:
Well, but that you’re absolutely right. I’ll tell you right now, I’m not going to over my dead body. And I’m going to add to what you said. Over my dead body, am I going to have anyone tell me that they have senior title to my house? Secondly, over my dead body, is anyone gonna say that other people have senior title over the parks, the roads, the air, the water. A lot of the in BC, we’re 300% of the land mass is being claimed over all the because of all the overlapping claims that they’re after not just water, but they’re after the air. And so it’s not good enough in my view to talk about protecting private property.
You are absolutely right. If you look closely at any of these treaties, including recent ones, that never says that Canada, that these people are sovereign states. They remain within Canada. They are part of the Canadian state, and yet we’re so close to seeing that happen. And two quick examples have been made where I live and Tsawwassen south of Vancouver, right on the American border, where you get the ferries to Vancouver Island. There was there’s a band that’s got an incredibly generous treaty. It had a mall built, it sold the mall to the Chinese through an interloper and an intermediary to the Chinese.
So the Chinese now have a big footprint right where I live. This is absolutely absurd. This idea that that you know what we’re moving toward, then there’s Haida Gwaii, where the people are saying we now have all of these islands, Queen Charlotte Islands, including places that we never settled, we never inhabited, because most back in history, people never lived in the Rocky Mountains, of course, but in Haida Gwaii, they live like most people on the coast, because there’s no way you could survive a mountainous interior of any amount of any island, and they’re saying that oh no, people can have their private property, but we can buy it from them. So it’s just a matter of time where they’re gonna say to people, oh, by the way, we’ve changed your water bill, your water bill. We’ve seen this many times, your water bill is now 50,000 a year. And people go, well, I can’t pay it. What do you mean?
Well, then I guess you’re gonna have to sell. So what you’re what they’re doing is they’re saying it is all ours, and they and their goal is to be sovereign nations. That they if you say, as our previous premier did, there’s that the Haida Gwaii control. This is all we’ll call it Haida Gwaii, the Haida control all this land, and nobody else can vote on important decisions on their lives if you’re non-Indigenous, which is half the population.
That is you said so wisely, Robert. There’s no way the non-Indigenous, which are 98% of the population in BC, are gonna put up with this. What you’re going to do is you’re going to fracture the province, you’re going to fracture the country. And people are saying, oh, well, no, we just need to do this or do that. No, you get rid of the Indian Act, you get rid of Section 35, you establish what you said.
The Canadian is the Canadian is the Canadian. And there’s no nothing about that that is anything that’s conditional or uncategorical. This is categorical. I’m sorry, I’m categorical. This is uncategorical. We are all equal. And that is in our constitution, in the Charter of Rights, particularly in Section 15.
Robert Vaughan:
I think you’re bringing up an interesting point, and that is that a lot of what’s going on is creating division, but it’s also doing the rank and file, if you will. And I will use the term Indigenous because my term is yet to come into common parlance. But anyway, the rank and file of the Indigenous in BC and the rest of the country are being maligned. And their case is not being helped when you have chiefs and people who are after it, the money, and we can get into that 17 million dollars to continue the investigation with the Kamloops issue. It’s an industry, but the people, the rank and file on the reserves, or even in the town, are not being done well by when their leaders are out there basically saying, give it all to us, because we were here first, which you weren’t. You’re a descendant of the original colonizers, you’re not the original colonizers. So to your point, yes, we are one race, and these people are doing a disservice, not just to you and I, but to their own people.
Jim McMurtry:
Well, I love that you’re saying that because I think you don’t, if you academically here, there are many parents that now come into the school system and said, Oh, my child’s autistic, my child’s has suffers from anxiety, or my child, and one thing after another, and not that these are real disorders or complexes or challenges, but it’s inflated. I just there’s all these kids right now who have need special things, and there’s a reason why they can’t hand their essay or write their exam, and not that there’s many of those anymore in the school system.
And you realize, I look at my own kid. The moment you give a child that crutch, the moment you say to an Indigenous person, well, you don’t actually have to get into law school, you don’t have to write the LSAT, you don’t have to get a degree, you don’t have to get a certain mark thing. As soon as you start saying that that no, everything for you is a backdoor.
You don’t have to work hard, you don’t have to have books in the home, you don’t have to have your kids staying away from some of the temptations in their teenage years. No, no, no. We’re going to arrange that for you.
So you’re going to base on this idea that you have, you’ve in the Olympics, you’ve always been on the top podium in for the victimhood Olympics. And it’s just so awful. And I just want to say one point because I think it’s an interesting anecdote that I badly broke my leg in my last year of high school playing football, and I couldn’t go to school for four and a half months.
My leg had to be reconstructed. And when I went there, it was two weeks before the final exam. And I went in and I spoke to the headmaster, and I said, they’re talking about exams and so forth, and what am I to do during exams? And the headmaster said to me, Well, you’re writing them. And I said, well, how I’m, I’ve been in class, how am I gonna do it? And he said, Well, you could have been working. You’re gonna write them. And he liked me, and he was a friend of my father’s.
And I thought, almost immediately, I thought, this guy knows what he’s talking about. Life is not easy. So you need to strengthen people, you need to make sure people that they can deal with adversity and get up when they’re hit. And this idea of what we’re doing right now in the school system particular is creating this idea of an Indigenous person, which in most cases is, of course, there’s Siberian migrants, many of them, but some have no connection whatsoever with that, because some of them came north from the um, you know, Mark quite recently, like the Iroquois or the Sioux. Some of them have no Indigenous blood soever, such as the Chief John Thunder and in Buffalo Point in Manitoba. So you’ve got so much that’s just untrue about this, but just if we can put that aside for a second, just think the best thing to do for Indigenous people is to say to them, no, you don’t need to have your own department in every high school where you get to go and have free food and all these things and a tutor and get out of class if you’re not understanding something.
No, no, no, we’re not gonna do that for you because that’s gonna make you into somebody who is never going to be able to compete with everybody else. And there were times, we all of course experience it in sports and so forth. There are times where it just doesn’t seem fair, and but we learn from that. And so I think the Indigenous policy in Canada is incredibly destructive, first and foremost to Indigenous people.
Robert Vaughan:
Yeah, that there’s that’s the irony, isn’t it? Now, I watched a bit of the campaign in British Columbia. And there was one lady from OneBC, the party you ran for, who had an excellent idea. Your party’s position on reservations in BC is quite remarkable.
And I’m surprised it’s not getting a lot more play. She said that as a federal employee, she had gone around to many of the reserves and noticed that the billions upon billions of dollars that is being funneled to the chiefs and the councils is not reaching the rank and file. She’ll swear to that it’s all going into the pockets of these people who are corrupt.
I don’t know if that’s all of them. Probably not, because people are people. There’s good and there’s bad. So her solution or OneBC’s solution was to create municipalities. Do you want to tell a little bit more about OneBC’s solution to this problem?
Jim McMurtry:
Well, and thank you for that. I just would like to first challenge that notion, not from you. The notion of, because I hear it all the time that the chiefs are the ones that are benefiting. And my father used to say that starting 30 years ago, if 40 years ago, there’s a chief who has a big role, the top chief in British Columbia named Stuart Phillip, when in 2014, his salary was 900,000 and for 914,000 tax free. So almost two almost two million dollars compared to everybody else. That was again 12 years ago, and since then, nobody has any idea what he makes. And so our chiefs profiting, yes, there’s whispers about some of the chiefs now being billionaires. So we don’t know how much these chiefs are making.
There’s no accountabilities. And it’s not just their salary. It’s their, they’re every it’s like the local mafia now.
Every time someone wants to have gold mine or cut down trees on the reserve or whatever. There’s all this hidden money that’s being, palms are being greased over that. And then there’s investments. The chiefs have so much money that they’re investing in all sorts of things. Nobody has any idea.
I’m sure they all have a high level accountants and investment portfolio. I mean, we have no idea what they’re making. They’re just been given huge amounts of money.
So the band that lives closest to me, there’s 400 people on the reserve, and just selling it small, just it’s small. They got 400 million. And so that instantly made everybody in the reserve millionaires.
And but that’s just a small fraction. They’re they’ve just they’ve got Walmart, they’ve got Amazon, they’ve got every big company you can imagine, particularly American company. They get money for the ferry terminal goes through that there’s this big there’s Chinese ships that come in with Robert’s Bank and drop their cargo. They’re just anyhow, they’re wealthy, very wealthy. So I take yes, and the yes, the chiefs are many of them are really wealthy, particularly those who’ve invested wisely or are sitting on wealthy land. And if you’re near Vancouver and you owned a lot of land, like the band near me to Tsawwassen, you’re fabulously wealthy, and you always will be that way.
And the Musqueam in Vancouver. I mean, this is not so so the second point of that part of that is a lot of that does seep down to the rank and file. So I take issue with the notion that the rank and file in Canada aren’t benefiting. I there are many of them that have more money than they’ll ever know what to do with, particularly if you can think in the oil patch.
Imagine being near Fort McMurray and in northern Alberta, how much money is in the pockets of of some of Canada’s wealthiest bands. And then of course, there’s ones that are able to have casinos and other businesses that no one else is allowed to have. So I but yes, there’s corruption at the top, absolutely it’s wrong. But the important thing is is I look at again the way I was as a teacher, and the way I’ve tried to be as a parent and grandparent, and that is it’s no good to give one group of people an advantage. And I think the Indigenous people by being handed all this cash, as you know, it’s the name if you look on AI, it’s not the 40 million, 40 billion a year, the two federal departments. It’s in the neighborhood of if you include all compensation in a year, free tuition, free this, that no taxes. The them the really the amount of money they’re getting in a year varies between 60 to 100 billion a year for a small part of the population that is of mixed race ancestry.
Leah Gazan, you talked earlier, wants to put people like me in jail, and then you if she listened to this podcast, she’d want you in jail too. And she’s less than one-eighth Indigenous, and yet she’s Indigenous to, I mean, this is just such a con game. And so OneBC is this small little party didn’t do well in the election, but I think it awakened people in Canada, particularly it’s film called Making a Killing, that recognizing how many there’s law firms in BC that do nothing, do absolutely nothing but work with Indigenous people to to sue us. And then they get the government to pay for them to for them to sue the government and to sue the taxpayer. And it’s just this incredible thing. There was one case of anyhow, bills, half a billion dollar legal bill. Is the biggest of all.
But so this is a very serious problem. But I just love to keep it simple. We’re both doing in this regard, and that is quite apart from what the people who are virtuous signaling and say, look, want to leave political office, like BC’s Premier David Eby, and look what I did for Indigenous people. I rewrote history. I gave them the province, and now everybody else is gonna have to pay rent to them and be worse off.
What’s it’s just that no way can you have a society work well if you are creating a reified apartheid if you’re bringing importing what South Africa was so considered so odious for doing, and that was based on ancestry, based on skin color that you’re giving very different rights to the people. So this is just again, and just explain to the people here. You’re looking at an ordinary guy, an anonymous guy, but I did something in this last election that didn’t many votes, 3.3% of the votes in my riding, which is still twice what my party got, but it’s pretty small, and people have mocked me for doing so little.
But what I have showed to people by turning my back on the land acknowledgement and getting hundreds of thousands of posts for doing that, because I’m on X, and then walking through the streets and said walking intersections, walking by the highway, is I have showed people that this is serious, and the number of people honking for me increased every day. And I think Canadians have to stop being polite or or whatever they’re trying to be, or moralistically performative, that Canadians have to understand here that you can never help anybody as a country if you don’t have that country anymore. The moment you assign all these rights, whether it’s in the Maritimes or in British Columbia to people who up until recently were hunter-gatherers, who are for the most part still dependent.
There’s some exceptions, but most of them are fully or are largely dependent on government handouts. If you are saying that it’s now their knowledge, it’s their knowledge of the past, it’s their knowledge of how the future should be, and it’s in their hands, and it’s for their sake. And if you want to do anything, you have to quietly again give them money.
I’m thinking this is absolute insanity. You have to Canadians right now have to say everything’s done. There’s no exceptions for any race.
I’m I think they do with anything but merit and competition and fairness. Everything’s gone. People just have to have that attitude. And so what I’m doing wherever I am, and it drives people crazy sometimes, but though they know about me that I’m completely uncompromising, and it and I wouldn’t be working today.
I would be considered to be a good guy again today. If there are other Canadians who do the same thing, don’t put up with it, don’t put up with a land acknowledgement anywhere. Don’t put up with any DEI hiring, don’t put up with anybody saying terrible things about our ancestors. I’m just the Canadians, we could end this so quickly if we just all said the woke you know that you are the propagandists of the probably the most evil religion that’s anyone ever invented because this is what what is doing is trying to not just destroy Canada, it’s trying to destroy all the Western values since the enlightenment, since Magna Carta and 1215, the idea that everybody is equal in some important ways, and we built on that equal in worth and dignity. The serf who had owns nothing, has some rights that the king cannot interfere with.
We have such an incredible achievement as a global society, and that emanated from Western Europe, and of course, Western Europe inherited things from the Greeks and the Romans, the Egyptians, and they from the area of Syrians and Mesopotamia, I mean then them from long people long before that, for really from the beginning that humans were able to think and reflect that we know that we’re building something better and better, and here we are in 2026, that we’re arguing or talking about things that is complete and utter absurdity, trying to figure out what additional or or superior rights people who are in many cases zero Indigenous should have over everybody else, folks. They should have nothing over anybody else.
Robert Vaughan:
I don’t know if you’re familiar with Marc Emery being in BC.
Jim McMurtry:
He’s a friend.
Robert Vaughan:
Marc and I go back about 40 years with the Freedom Party of Ontario in Ontario in London. And you reminded me of him because uncompromising, well spoken, won’t take guff wonderful, and we need more people like you.
So I’m always curious, Jim. How does this garner so much support from the major populace? Because it does. If you talk to the person on the street, as I’m sure you have, while you will meet people who agree with you. There’s a lot that disagree.
The mainstream media disagree, the institutions disagree, your college, teachers’ college disagrees, your union disagrees, the BC government disagrees, everybody in officialdom disagrees with your and my point of view. And I’m I put it down to two things really. And they’re both emotions. One is fear, and the other is greed.
We talked about greed there for a moment, but the fear component you’re somewhat fortunate, I guess, in that as you say, you had 40 years of teaching, and right now, okay, you’re not going to be teaching again as you describe yourself as old. So there’s not a lot left for you to lose. As a matter of fact, I think you’re gaining you’re gaining a great reputation for a person who’s steadfast, who has integrity and was willing to stay up or stand up for the truth. So it’s a plus to you, not a loss.
So can you put yourself in the shoes of a young teacher who has to go along with this nonsense? Or not just teachers, anyway, any walk of life in any industry, in any corporate office, having land acknowledgments, having to deal with DEI, being afraid to open your mouth, for fear of reprisal. I mean, we’re living under a pall of fear the more this continues. Would you agree?
Jim McMurtry:
Well, you said that so beautifully. Absolutely. I have all sorts of people on daily basis or through the election, telling me that I’m fighting for them. Yes, I’m in a position where I can because I they took my job away.
I’m I am old enough to put aside enough money, and I recognize early on in this. Of course, I didn’t want to fight. I spent, I mean, still I had fear. Don’t think I didn’t I told you I didn’t tell my father and mother for two years that I’d been fired. So it’s not just fear of losing your livelihood, fear of how are you gonna pay your bills? And my kids all went through university on that average of eight and a half years.
So I mean, they’re built, and then they want to get in the housing market. So I’m just gonna go, how and then my wife is with cancer, all of a sudden the two of us going, how are we gonna manage? So, no, we had all sorts of fears financially for a while, and that and but also just reputationally that you’re absolutely right. Why would I want to cast shame on my parents and my children on my grandchildren who are coming of age, why would I want them to think there’s something wrong with me? So it’s really hard to separate oneself from the herd. And the second thing, you talked about greed, the way I see it is it’s a form of chauvinism of self-interest, of self-promotion. But I think we all want to see ourselves as good, and we do that by putting other people down. We do, we lift ourselves up by putting other people down. It’s a basic psychological practice.
And maybe we’re not conscious of that. If you are on part of the people who are so fervently convinced that they are good and right, and everybody else is, whatever, racist or horrible or whatever, that form of tribalism of us versus them. That’s what all our institutions are doing. You people are wise enough to know that you’re not gonna get anywhere in this society if you if you are not and in the very most basic sense, considered a good person.
And so I have lost the ability to have political or meaningful conversations with half my family, with half my cousins, with half my siblings, with I’m sure half of all sorts of things, half my friends and so we’ve all experienced that. And I think it’s I don’t sign bad in bad qualities to them. I’m simply saying I understand it, but at a deeper level, they know they’re wrong. They know they’re wrong because what they’re doing is that pretending that they’re the ones that are right and moralistic, and they’re on this high horse of self satisfaction because they’re helping minorities and they’re and they’re pissing people who have like me. Look at me, there’s nothing that I have to complain about.
I mean, I’m white male, older, comfortable financially, able body, I don’t have any disability. I mean, all these things that people feel better about about this us them that structure of paradigm of going, look, I’m with the good people, and and it’s not enough just to be with the good people. You it you have to show you’re with the big good people by hurting the bad people, and that’s what the crusades were. The crusades were people who had many good ideas, they wanted to restore the holy land to Christians that had been, lands that have been taken over by Muslims, and yet they all of a sudden they start doing the most wicked things to anyone who is different from them. And that’s what the problem with our institutions is they’re the I think the elites in Canada are completely incorrigible that you can’t correct them, and I don’t know how you replace them, but they’re all have fallen for this wickedness, where it’s not just good enough for them to think that they’re better than everybody else because they’re because oh no, I believe what Indigenous elders say, therefore I’m better than someone who questions them. It’s that they’re wanting to punish.
I really think, and many people have said this to me. There was so much hatred for me at first, and I even recently in the election. I think if some people were allowed to do this, that they would draw and quarter me, that they would hang me for being for denying what they consider their truth, which is an absurdity, which is that teachers in residential schools, like in Kamloops murdered half your students.
Robert Vaughan:
Well, I agree with you. Is as a matter of fact, if you go back to the COVID era and you look at some of the headlines, for example, in the Toronto Star about what people would do to the people who didn’t get the shot. You’re absolutely right. The vast majority of people in any society, I would venture to say, would do harm to you if told to do so or allowed to do so. So I think you’re right.
It’s a shame because these typically are ordinary people, eight out of ten people walking around, would do you and me harm if they were ordered to or allowed to get away with it. So you’re right to be skeptical of people.
Jim McMurtry:
You said at the beginning, Robert, that whenever I went out, that the police were with me. Every single time, except for the very last day, because they they couldn’t find me. And but every single day people said I was there’s a hate crime committed by this guy carrying this sign. And again, all it said was in land acknowledgments. And the police stood with me.
One day I had three cop cars, and there were always people who were trying to do something against me. And I kept saying to the police, do you not see what’s happening here? You didn’t investigate Kamloops five and a half years ago. You, the police did not do what you’re supposed to do.
There’s a claim of mass murder of children, and for you not to dig or not to investigate is is iniquitous. But also because what you’ve done to people like me, you caused my job to go away. And so here I am all these years later. I’m running in elections, I’m doing these things, writing books and all these things. But really, what I’m doing, Robert, is I’m fighting my case. Because if I win my case, in many ways already have, because it’s I think a lot of school districts are becoming a little bit more nervous about going after teachers who are who are telling the truth, regardless of what it is, saying well wrong pronouns are or gender affirming care is not affirming care, it’s mutilation of children’s doctor Mengele like.
But anyhow, so it’s an interesting shift. But really what I’m saying here is that the saying to the police that really what you should be doing is is being honest with yourselves. You’re not here to protect me from these people, because you’re letting these people attack me on a daily basis.
And what you’re doing is you’re not admitting the fact that here I am, I’m a nice guy. I won teaching awards, I was principally a young age. I mean, I’ve nobody has ever said in the school system that I was a monster. And I’m on the street, the young kid walks by, whatever. I gave the kid in conversation. The kid tells me, Oh, I don’t want to talk to you or whatever, like that.
I just say, have a great day, and thank you for even listening to like why is it that the whole system is supporting these people who want you? Who want you want to be wicked, but that’s what black lives matter was. There was there were schools in Canada too, where white kids were brought to the front of the classroom to be humiliated.
Robert Vaughan:
I suspect, Jim. I suspect that those police officers who were there were simply waiting for somebody to cause a physical altercation and then arrest you for instigating it with your incendiary sign. What would you think that may be right? Was that possible? They’re not there to protect you, they’re there to potentially arrest you.
Jim McMurtry:
Well, you’re a difficult host for me because everything you say, I really like. I can’t argue with you on anything. You’re absolutely right. Again, and so what I did is I went, I have a friend who helped me early on, university professor. I didn’t know she would become famous.
Frances Widdowson, who’s Francis, yes, where she’s been carried out, and students are trying to hit her, kick her, spit on her, blow whistles in her ear. I mean, it’s just awful. Throw smoke bombs at her, light her up, throw substances on her, just everything. And I’m there in the mix, and these are all university students. Okay at the University of Victoria, her case at the worst was Lethbridge, but when BC University of Victoria, University of British Columbia, Thompson Rivers University, and University of the Fraser Valley, anyhow, all these different places, these students were wanting to one time that it was so bad, they carried Frances off. She had done absolutely nothing wrong. They carried her in the air, put her in police officers, and the rest of us are kind of looking around. Okay, what do we do right now? We’re surrounded by a thousand people. They put us in the UBC swimming hall or where their swimming pool is, and the crowd was so big they start banging on the windows, and the police were so worried about it, they had us walk by all the swimmers out the back door into a bus, and then the bus got surrounded.
These are university students. Yes, they would have killed some of us if they could, and they’ve been misinformed. They simply, but this is what Hitler did. And this is I know I can speak particularly about Hitler, right? Because reading the right, I’m reading right now, the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich of William Shirer, and that is that they fanaticize the young people. Obviously, this is what the Islamic terrorists do. They get people so or welling that these two minutes hate. So I’ve just finished those last statements.
So, yes, you’re absolutely right about this. And so, with when I went to universities, there was nothing, there was no way that they wanted an any way to an idea for an idea, an idea to pierce through the armor that they the that armor of hatred that they had built up and they and directing toward us. And one time I remember being surrounded by a number of people, and I turned to the crowd and I said, Well, there’s two women here with me. One is a university professor with a PhD, Frances Widdowson, who’s written a lot of books and she’s been doing that for decades, and she’s the leading expert on in residential schools, which you guys think you know so much about. Wouldn’t you want to ask her a question?
The other woman here is an elected member of the provincial parliament of the legislative assembly members combined, Dallas Brodie, who’s educated in Ivy League University and did her law degree at the University of Toronto and has had a spectacular career and leader currently of a political party. Wouldn’t you instead of trying to assault us? Wouldn’t you think that it would be an interesting conversation to be had?
And then I myself I’m on the pan-Canadian research group for any residential schools, and highly published in the area. I said, why would and a son of a chief justice? Why wouldn’t you think that any of us would be worth asking? So some kids seem some early students would all of a sudden start to soften, and there were some good discussions. So I don’t want to impugn all university students, but I would say for the most part, Rob, for the most part. We couldn’t get through to your average student because they are creating militant students, they’re creating armies of woke lunatics, brown shirts and black shirts, Maoists who are wanting struggle sessions every day at school and their idiot classes on DI or whatever it is, or the pressure of women from the beginning of time or how decolonization or whatever. So yeah, I’m a person that believes I’m trying to bring this full circle because I don’t have much more time and that is to say to the to the audience that’s listening here that Margaret Mead that’s a ballot just said that it isn’t the people at the top who really make the change that’s and that but they say a small group of committed citizens can’t change the world.
People like you, because I think the people who have these podcasts, the social media influencers like you, I think are incredibly important. But that’s really what’s happening right here. The conservative party just defeated in a landslide election. The people who were doing this, who are putting drag queens into schools, who are having drag queens with little kindergartens kids on their laps, who are bringing in SOGI books with anal sex and blowjobs and showing pictures to kids in grade two who were and everybody put the pride flags, progress pride flag, which is three of the colours are for trans and men for whites or Asians or Christians or on and on and on or heterosexuals.
Like it’s just absolute madness what’s happening in the school. And at the beginning, I told you I got 3.3% of the vote. But 10 years from now, I’m gonna be the one remembered, and all those other people are going to be a disappointment because they weren’t being honest that the schools are in a crisis. And if you have 600 girls, girls under 19 or 18, that are having the breast cut off every year, some as young as 14, it used to be 12. If that doesn’t concern Canadians, but but seeing Sir John A. Macdonald’s statue up at Queen’s Park guys, or no, really Ontario right now, for the the umpteenth time, Champlain, who started the first settlement in Canada, really the founder of Canada.
They keep on most recently they took power tools and cut off limbs. If people think that someone like me deserves only 3.3% of the vote, and somebody else who’s going along with all this, this this I mean, it’s just an extraordinary thing. It’s just it’s a rabbit hole, it’s upside down, it’s inversion of of anything that’s this rational.
Robert Vaughan:
I know that your time is limited. In fact, I think it’s up, but if I could squeeze in one more question, do you have time?
Jim McMurtry:
Yes.
Robert Vaughan:
Okay. What you’re describing to me is what others have described as the long march from Marx to Gramsci to the Frankfurt School, the deconstructionalists infiltrating every walk of life, especially journalism and the schools, to raise up a bunch of compliant, non-thinking doehead people, so they can control them. Unfortunately, that is the case in this new Indigenous thing, and it wasn’t around all this for very long, except when Justin Trudeau got in, it took off. But him taking the knee and lowering the flags for almost eight months in Canada over this hoax is just outrageous.
But I wondered, you ran for the Liberal Party in 2006. Could you very briefly, I know your time’s limited, very briefly tell us how you went from running for the Liberals to running for the PPC in OneBC. What was your evolution of political thought to change you from somebody who would support the Liberal Party in Canada to a Maxime Bernier?
Jim McMurtry:
Well, you again absolutely delight me with your questions. So maybe kind of closing on this a little bit, unless you have important because I just am loving this, but I don’t like to go too long. So I’m a kid who got through high school because I love literature. I mean, I played sports and stuff, and I but I didn’t really I didn’t get into their into other subjects, but I loved English class and I loved reading and books like The Inheritors, To Kill a Mockingbird, Huckleberry Finn, which is around time, anyway. There’s the Outsiders which are read for a long time as a teacher, younger kids whole.
Like there’s just some great stories there, and everybody just becomes completely entranced by them. And so when I got into the University of Toronto and did a my doctoral work there, I we said, what do I might do for your thesis? And I dissertation, and I thought that because they were trying to cancel Margaret Laurence’s at the time, the prominent Canadian author, The Diviners and was your most famous work, and I said, Well, I’ll make a case that I can make a case for literature in schools, and because I what I really felt was the political right was censoring literature, like everybody wanted to get rid of Margaret Laurence, burner at the stake, and were people on the political right, the religious political right. And I and so I was on the left, very much on the left. And so I wrote that dissertation, and I believe that that so fundamentally the kids should have a right to read freely and think freely and so on in schools.
And I love what you said. The this generation of kids that don’t want to know the number of students that walk by me. I stood outside of schools and the police would come right away. And just an armies of kids would walk by me and they wouldn’t open their mouths. I’m going, kids, when I was talking to talking to our teachers, we talked to people to protesters, we do it, whatever in an election, but they’re being trained not even to open their mouths because apparently we’re so evil.
And the and I know that all the schools in Delta, they had assemblies with all the kids and all the schools, assemblies. They didn’t mention my name, but there’s one man in the community who you need to stay away from. And I’m going, like I’ve never committed a crime. I raised children well, and and I’ve so many former students are still in touch with me.
So here I am all these years later. The censorial forces, the forces that want to cancel literature, which are getting they’ve got rid of Dr. Seuss at my school in Abbotsford that they got rid of Agatha Christie.
So the people who are wanting to close everything are from the left. And so it’s been an interesting thing. But I’m me. I’m haven’t changed at all. I love literature. I want kids to read and think freely in a classroom. And if you don’t think freely, if you were going to start to say you can’t talk about this, or can’t talk about that. Oh, somebody is going to be oh traumatized or triggered, or the moment you start letting people, whatever their excuses are, to again to control people’s thought, to curtail it, to restrict it, to reduce it, reduce their language, then you’re gonna have a problem with me because that’s the most fundamental value, and that’s what education is. The word educare, the words that created the word education from the Greek, because it’s leading out, it’s developing, it’s just doing this opening and not closing.
So all of a sudden I realized that I was on the right, I hadn’t moved, I was now on the right, and then when I started to fight this long before I was fired, and which is they people being unhappy, never was pro promoted principal to young age in the private school system, but never promoted in the public school system and and threatened on many occasions, but appreciate as well because then I was a good teacher, and so yes, I ran for the Liberals because 21 years ago I was still believing that the Liberals were the party against censorship, and then and and I started even during the election.
I’m looking around going, how the hell did I end up here? Well, going into that, but the and then short while later, not really, 2015 hit, and then Trudeau, Trudeau’s biggest effort was one censorship bill after another, and then still Bill C-9 with Carney and I mean it sits on believable. The Liberal Party, Liberal Party, which means freedom is the one that’s closing our thoughts, and you can only think this way, and Trudeau saying, Oh, you can’t be candidate if you’re if you’re against abortion or are concerned about abortion or whatever, and so Robert, I’m the same person, and then that’s the example I showed in the election is that I I’ve decided rightly or wrongly, this is who I am, and I’m not budging from that, and I’m too old, and I’m and I’m too principled. Principal is Laertes said a Polonius said to Laertes’ son in Hamlet, above all else, be true to thine own self.
I’m too old to be anything other than true to my own self. So people drove by me just a couple of days ago, said I’m going back. We’re gonna get some people, we’re gonna come and get you, and we’re going to just we’re gonna, we’re gonna hurt you really badly. And also, and I said to them, I’ll be right here. I mean, that’s who I am. I’m right here.
All the issues that we talked about, Robert. What we are lacking, and this is Dallas Brodie, the visionary leader, OneBC. And she said, what we lack is not ideas, there are a lot of good ideas in Canada. We lack moral clarity and courage. Those who think they’re immoral are immoral, and those who think they’re courageous by standing up for minorities or hurting those minorities and destroying our country.
Robert Vaughan:
Well said, Jim, it’s a bit of pleasure. Before we go, how can people discover you on social media?
Jim McMurtry:
Well, if they put my name Jim McMurtry in Google, it will come up. But I’m on X. I don’t have the energy to do other platforms, and I have lots of followers, and I think people would be happy to see that that I’m completely unrestricted in what I say, and and I so I’m if you want a free space, I don’t know a better place than X.
And if you don’t want a free space, then read the Globe and Mail or Toronto Star or re watch CBC. But I mean that’s not we we have the ideas, it’s just that people have to want to be strong enough to go find those ideas and and stand by them. And in many cases, of course, they already know deep down. Most Canadians know that no child’s in the wrong body, that no child should be defined by his or her skin color, that no child should be lied to about history.
Robert Vaughan:
Well said. You’re an asset to the country. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you, and I hope we get to talk again because there’s so many more questions I had for you. Thank you, Jim McMurtry. It’s been a pleasure.
Jim McMurtry:
Mine too. Thank you so much, Robert. God bless you.