015 – Transcript
Just Right Episode 015
Air Date: July 26, 2007
Host: Bob Metz
(Created using AI. Errors may be present)
Station Disclaimer:
The views expressed in this program are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of 94.9 CHRW.
Opening Clip (Star Trek: Enterprise 101):
Speaker 1: What are you doing? Leave the kid alone!
Speaker 2: Don’t get involved.
Speaker 1: You see what she’s doing? He’s gonna suffocate!
Speaker 2: They’re Larylians. Before the age of four they can only breathe methyl oxide. The mother is simply weening her son.
Speaker 1: Could have fooled me.
Speaker 2: Humans can’t refrain from drawing conclusions. You should learn to objectify other cultures. So you know when to interfere and when not to.
Bob Metz:
Good morning London. It’s Thursday July 26th. I’m Bob Metz and this is Just Right on CHRW 94.9 FM where we will be with you from now until noon. No, no, not right wing.
Just right. And welcome to the show today. Something a little different for you today because not only can you call in 519-661-3600 to join in the conversation today, but from here on in you’ll also be able to email me directly. If you have any comments or things that you hear, subjects you might want to see brought up on the show, or even comments about shows that have already been broadcast that you just didn’t get a chance to make a comment on.
I’ll expand a bit on that a little more next week because we have a little bit of a special show today. But bear in mind that we will read all email. We certainly can’t reply to it all. This is not a daily show. We’re just here weekly. So we have to pick and choose and that’s the best we can do. But we sure would like to hear from you and tell us what you think about the show.
Good or bad. And once again, that would be email us at JustRightCHRW@gmail.com. And that’s all lowercase, J-U-S-T-R-I-G-H-T-C-H-R-W at gmail.com. And I’ll be talking a little bit more about that next week. Right now though, a bit of a different show today. Today I just happened to run into a friend of mine who’s visiting here in London, who’s a Londoner, a native Londoner, meaning that he was born here, who has decided to live and work abroad in what many of us believe is perhaps the socialist paradise of Sweden. We hear a lot about Sweden. Some people have an opinion of Sweden. Some people don’t think much about Sweden one way or the other. I’ve talked to some people.
They say, well, that’s where they make all those fancy tools and high quality machinery and good quality cars. But nevertheless, my guest today is Londoner Paul Lambert. Paul, welcome to the show.
Paul Lambert:
Thank you.
Bob Metz:
And I was looking at some information about Sweden. I guess the first thing is tell us a little bit about yourself and why you went to Sweden in the first place and then we’ll get back to a couple of these stats.
Paul Lambert:
Well, it was very much by accident. I was in Iceland first as a teenager. I always wanted to go to Iceland. And so I went from London to Iceland and I was there about just under two years and just studies and other circumstances took me to Sweden. I didn’t intend to stay as long as I did, but I ended up getting stuck in, got a job, did my studying, made friends, made enemies and just became part of that culture.
Bob Metz:
Now, while you were in Sweden, you also became a teacher for a while, didn’t you?
Paul Lambert:
I was teaching for about three years.
Bob Metz:
And what level?
Paul Lambert:
That was middle school. That corresponds to the fourth, fifth and sixth grade here in Ontario.
Bob Metz:
Okay. Now, you and I, we’ve known each other for a while and since you moved abroad, we’ve kept in touch at least once or twice a year, if not a little more frequently. And some of the things you’ve told me over the years about Sweden and living in Sweden and the comparisons between Canada and Sweden, because you’re one of the few people that would be in a position to appreciate that stark difference and be aware of it. Because as a Canadian, if I only went over there for a while, I’d be the tourist. I’d probably have a very different impression than actually living there.
And also being Canadian yourself, you know what it’s like to be Canadian. You can have an idea of how we are here. Did a little bit of research. I remember sharing this with you just a little bit before just to give some idea in encyclopedia. Just a few statistics. We’re not going to get into that today.
But just to give you an idea, I went through an encyclopedia. Certainly Sweden’s a lot smaller than Canada in terms of geography area. 173,729 square miles compared to Canada’s 3,851,809 square miles. Canada has a population of, according to this, we’re a little bit above that now.
This is a few years old, but I want to compare the same years to same years. When we were at 29 million, Sweden was at 8,700,000. It talks about the major cities here. Interestingly here, we have main religion in Canada is listed as Christianity, same as in Sweden. We have the official languages of English and French. Now it says here, official language in Sweden is Swedish. But when I mentioned that to you, you told me.
Paul Lambert:
That’s right. Of course, all official government documents are in Swedish, but there’s no official status of any one language in Sweden like you have in Canada or some other countries. Ironically enough, Finland is the only country where Swedish is an official language.
Bob Metz:
Isn’t that interesting? So the difference would be that in Finland, you said?
Paul Lambert:
In Finland, yes.
Bob Metz:
There would then be some sort of consequences to dealing in the wrong language under certain circumstances?
Paul Lambert:
They’re said to be the most protected minority, the Swedish speaking Finns. They have a right to take their exams in Swedish. The road signs are in Swedish. They get service at the post office in Swedish. And no other language, no language in particular has such guarantees in Sweden.
Bob Metz:
Interesting. I was also looking at the form of governments that are both considered constitutional monarchy, Canada and Sweden. I noticed the per capita GNP is a little bit higher in Sweden than in Canada, interestingly enough, expressed in terms of US dollars. In this year, out of this encyclopedia around 2001 and 2002, we’re talking $26,780 for Sweden USD $20,320 for Canada. I compared similar figures from other current publications here, including the World Report by the Economist, 21st edition, and the Economic Freedom of the World Report that the Fraser Institute puts out. And when you look at the stats, and we went through them this morning really quickly, there wasn’t… Just to look at it statistically, you’d almost think Sweden and Canada were twin brothers or something like that. If you just look at the stats, the GNP, they’re that.
And yet, when I hear you talk about what it’s actually like to live there, it’s very different in so many ways. Things that the statistics just can’t tell us. So what would be the first thing you tell somebody that don’t believe everything you read?
Paul Lambert:
It’s not a matter of not believing what you read. Statistics tell one story, and within a given context, it is correct. Now there’d be different rankings of different countries economically and in other ways. For instance, if Sweden is higher ranked than Canada, does that mean someone in Canada can just go to Sweden and he will necessarily live a better life or have a better standard of living? And that’s not necessarily true. There are other factors, cultural factors, and other things like that that play an important role.
Bob Metz:
So living in Sweden is… How is it every day?
Like even, for example, what’s it like to go shopping in Sweden? How much is gas? I think you told me somewhere around $2.50 a litre.
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, if you’re driving a car, it’s $2.50 a liter. And what’s funny is that I find over here that’s a big point of conversation is the price of gas. Everyone’s talking about the price of gas.
There’s talk radio shows about it.
It’s not such a big point of conversation over in Sweden, even though it’s so much more expensive.
Bob Metz:
But it’s been up there for quite a while, hasn’t it?
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, it’s something I suppose they’ve gotten used to.
Bob Metz:
Whereas when you’re coming back here, I remember you mentioning this to me last year, because last year at this time we just topped the dollar, got pretty close to it for the first time, and you were wondering what all the fuss was about. And I had to explain to you, well, just a couple weeks ago we were down at 81 or 82 or something like that, whereas you had sort of been under the impression being away now that maybe we were up there for a while.
But no, we’re still fluctuating quite a bit on the gas prices in that sense.
Paul Lambert:
Well, you asked about shopping. The first thing you notice, the two things you notice first of all, everything is much more expensive in part due to taxation and other factors. And there’s a much smaller variety of things to buy in Sweden, much fewer products in Sweden.
Bob Metz:
So right away I already see how that… When you look at that statistic where it says the average Swede has 6,000 more than the average Canadian, you can already see where most of that has to be spent just to be equal.
Paul Lambert:
Well, that’s right.
Bob Metz:
In terms of paying for gas at $2.50 a litre. So it really doesn’t tell the story about standard of living.
Paul Lambert:
It buys you much less. That’s my experience anyway. It does buy you much less.
Bob Metz:
Now one thing, some of the smaller comments are what seem to be insignificant comments that you make to me when you visit back to Canada. You make a comment like, Gee, the people in the stores here are so friendly, you tell me. Aren’t they in Sweden?
Paul Lambert:
No, no, it’s outstanding and it’s a bit of a shame that I become used to the way people treat me in Sweden. But no, you come to Canada, they go out of their way to help find something. I was just looking for a package of bread at the store.
Bob Metz:
Here in Canada?
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, here in Canada. The man actually took me all the way across, didn’t even tell me which aisle. He took me across the entire store, stopped what he was doing to help me find a package of bread. That would never happen in Sweden. In Sweden you go and you ask for help, you almost feel like you’re interrupting them. They react and they’re very rude. They’re downright rude to you.
Bob Metz:
How do they stay in business then if you’re not serving the customer? Why do you keep going back to a store where they’re treating you rudely?
Or is that the only choice you have?
Paul Lambert:
In fairness, I don’t think they mean to be rude, they just don’t understand. That’s not the way to behave. I suppose if an entire culture has that, that becomes the norm.
It is very abrupt in Sweden. You’re saying that people here complain about how they’re treated in stores. I find it unbelievable.
Bob Metz:
And even with traffic, what was it you were saying about the traffic? You said people here are very friendly in traffic.
Paul Lambert:
They are. There are a few boneheads who don’t know how to drive. But it’s no problem, I noticed, merging. If you’re stuck at a red light and stuff, people wait. They don’t honk their horns at you. It’s the total opposite.
Bob Metz:
And yet if you’re here full-time and listen long enough to various talk radio shows, you’ll hear that we have the worst drivers in the world. They cut you off and they’re impolite and it’s getting more dangerous all the time.
And then you come here and from someone from another environment, you tell me, oh wow, it’s really great here.
Paul Lambert:
That’s not to say there’s not room for improvement. You always aim for perfection. But at the same time, relax, it’s hardly the worst. Sweden’s not the worst in the world.
I wouldn’t want to drive in some African countries or South America where I’m told it’s much worse.
Bob Metz:
You must have been pretty young when you left Canada.
Paul Lambert:
I was 19.
Bob Metz:
You were 19 and then you didn’t go to Sweden first. You went to Iceland.
So tell us a bit about Iceland and then what made you decide to go to Sweden and then expectations versus reality? Or were they pleasant? Were they unpleasant? Well, because you were going there to live, not…
Paul Lambert:
Yeah. My move to Iceland was very deliberate.
It was about four years in the making. And so when I went there, it was everything I expected.
Bob Metz:
And what attracted you there?
Paul Lambert:
Well, it was the culture and the history and just reading about the way people are. Iceland is a very individualistic society. People get up in the morning, they do things.
It’s go, go, go all the time. And at the same time that the climate, while it’s harsh, the landscape is very beautiful. It’s a very unique place as volcanoes and deserts and rolling hills.
You can pass through all in one day. And it’s a very beautiful country.
Bob Metz:
Does it live up to its name, Iceland?
Paul Lambert:
Well, not in… No, not really. In the way Greenland doesn’t live up to its name either.
It’s rather opposite. Iceland is rather green while Greenland is very icy. But what I like about Iceland as well is that this is a political show, the political system, the politicians are far more level-headed, more down to earth. You might not like everything, but they face reality.
They don’t give a lot of empty promises.
Bob Metz:
And how long were you in Iceland?
Paul Lambert:
I was in Iceland just over two years.
Bob Metz:
And during that time you were doing mainly what?
Paul Lambert:
Well, I was studying at the university. And I was working at the fish factory. That was hard work.
Bob Metz:
I imagine. And so then what attracted you from Iceland to Sweden two years after that? You graduated, I assume, at that point or finished?
Paul Lambert
No, no, I hadn’t.
That was the point. In order to continue the particular education I wanted to do, I had to go abroad. And Sweden presented itself for a few different reasons.
Bob Metz:
So you went there to school basically?
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, I did go there to school. And I worked as well. So that’s why I ended up in Sweden now. Like I said, I didn’t intend to stay as long as I did.
But at a certain age, just get stuck in.
Bob Metz:
Okay, well listen, we’ll come back to some more points right after this break. We’ll be back right after this.
Comedy Clip (Kids in the Hall – Canada Sketch):
Speaker 1: We’re all here, here in Canada. Canada, where the fathers of confederation got together with the mothers of invention and created the kids in the hall. Canada, a wonderful place and the only place in the world that takes Canadian money at par.
Yes. We love to travel throughout Canada. We recently were in Northern Ontario where they’re so friendly. They’re user friendly.
I know because they said user friendly. And we went to Kitchener. And in Kitchener they believe that the October crisis is when you run out of beer and sausages. Yes.
Comedy Clip (Wendy Liebman):
We couldn’t wait to get here and be part of the festival because this is like a dream come true. I used to be a secretary. And for six years I practically ran that company into the ground. No, I worked very hard at looking busy. And I had this boss. She was so mean so I would call in sick. Oh, I have female problems.
And she didn’t know that I meant her.
Bob Metz:
This is Bob Metz and this is Just Right on CHRW. Where you can call in at 519-661-3600. How are things going in there Ira?
Ira Timothy:
Just fine, Bob.
Bob Metz:
Ira’s our program producer today. And we’re going to be starting a little bit different formats in the future too.
Again, you can also email us at JustRightCHRW@gmail.com. And I’m here in the studio today with Paul Lambert, native Londoner who has been living and working abroad in Sweden particularly and in Iceland. I was just thinking about work ethic and government in Sweden per se. You already hinted that some of the people in stores aren’t too helpful. In some sense when I talk to other people about Sweden they think of high quality products like the fine tools and machinery and the cars. That almost seems contradictory to people who think socialist countries can’t produce something of high quality. How would you see that? Or is that the major industry there?
Paul Lambert:
No, it is true that there is high quality. For such a small country Sweden stands out industrially compared to other countries its size. Certainly more than a country like Austria or Hungary or places like that. We have to remember that these companies like Volvo in particular, that’s probably the biggest one everyone knows. That was founded in 1928. Most of the big high quality companies are much older than certainly the high tax history of Sweden.
It’s interesting. The current government, the one that just came in, the nominally conservative government. For the past 100 years the social democrats have ruled Sweden almost without interruption. For the first 60 or so years Sweden remained a low tax country. It was simply by deficit spending. The idea was to win the votes now with low tax and then the future generations would pay for it.
Which we are doing now.
Bob Metz:
If that’s the case, are you suggesting that these companies that are known to us here are doing better because they sort of got in under the wire before the government came in? Did they give them special concessions or something like that? Or did they not have to obey the same economic rules, restrictions and regulations that newer companies had to? Or that they were more established?
Paul Lambert:
That was larger too in the beginning that they sort of got in under the wire. Nowadays there are very few Swedish companies that are wholly Swedish. Volvo was bought out by Ford in 1998. While a lot of Swedes had a rather emotional negative feeling toward that, it did make sense.
Volvo had a reputation of a quality solid car, safety, environmentally sound. The only way they could have continued that was to get the foreign backing. That’s true of many different companies. Saab is also owned by GM and many other companies. It’s interesting that a lot of Swedish companies have moved their head offices abroad.
Volvo’s head offices in London now, London, England. There’s very little that’s purely Swedish anymore that probably couldn’t keep up in today’s market.
Bob Metz:
Now, you worked in Sweden and that’s where you taught for a while.
What was the thing you took away from that experience, teaching in Sweden, that Canadians might relate to? What would they think would be so different from how you might have seen it?
Paul Lambert:
Well, different. It’s just a more advanced state, I think, in Sweden when it comes to discipline in school. I tell parents, it’s your job to discipline your kids. We’ll teach them what they need to know, but they just fail to discipline children at all in Sweden. No, it’s the parents themselves.
Bob Metz:
Can a school not do anything? By discipline, do you mean corporal punishment?
Paul Lambert:
No, I don’t mean anything of the sort.
I mean very things that seem quite straightforward. I mean, I was quite a revolution when a child who was completely disruptive was sent out into the corridor for about 10 minutes. And it’s really strange when a child doesn’t like the way he’s being disciplined. He runs to the headmaster to get the teacher into trouble. Can you imagine that? When I was young, you would never want to be sent to the principal’s office.
But now you wouldn’t want the kid going to the principal’s office to tattle on the teacher.
Bob Metz:
Well, how do you… You were the teacher. How did you control students like that? You couldn’t really… Could you kick them out? Could you expel them in any way?
Paul Lambert:
Well, you’re technically not supposed to.
People looked the other way when I did just that. And I don’t want to say that every single day and every single kid was bad. It was a largely positive experience.
But there was just enough of the negative that would make me decide I don’t really want to follow that career. Less and less to do with education, more and more to do with bureaucracy and politics and also disciplinary measures.
Bob Metz:
And what did you teach? Like general subjects or…
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, at that level, it’s much like here where you have one teacher all day long, grade four, five, and six.
Bob Metz:
Oh, okay. So it wasn’t like kids moving around from class to class?
Paul Lambet:
No, that’s only older children, which I had sometimes, but not often.
Bob Metz:
Now, when you came back to Canada for this visit here, you heard… Actually, you heard me talking on the show last week about the possibility of Howard Hampton trying to introduce some form of socialized dental care to the province of Ontario. And then you told me something about the cost of dentistry there and you having to book what?
Paul Lambert:
Well, it’s very funny that you should bring that up because I actually have a dentist appointment here in London tomorrow. It’s cheaper for me to fly from Sweden to Canada for a dental appointment than it would be to have a dental appointment back in Sweden. That’s at the socialized dental care.
You can go to a private dentist, but then there’s the state run one, which you pay for anyway as well. It’s subsidized.
Bob Metz:
Through taxes, you mean?
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, through taxes.
Bob Metz:
But anybody could go in.
Paul Lambert:
Anyone could go in. You pay for a surgery as well. It would cost… What I have to pay for tomorrow’s appointment here in London would barely get me through the door at the socialized dentist in Sweden.
Bob Metz:
Now, here in London, is insurance covering your cost?
Paul Lambert:
No, it’s out of pocket.
It’s still cheaper. Now, I just have a regular checkup, but my mother-in-law, when she was alive, she needed some serious work and we figured out that it would have been cheaper to fly here first class to London to get it done and send her back than it would be to…
Bob Metz:
That’s very interesting because a couple weeks ago I was talking, relating a similar story, only in this case it was from Canada to India where someone flew from Kitchener, Ontario specifically to have some back surgery done in India. And it was cheaper to go through that process and being put up at a four-star hotel in India for recovery than it would have been to stay here and wait forever and ever to get that kind of treatment.
Paul Lambert:
Oh, I can believe it.
Bob Metz:
Now, are the Swedes themselves aware of this problem?
Is there no one that wants to fix it? And if you’ve got private dentists there, are they more expensive too?
Paul Lambert:
Well, they are more expensive. It’s real irony, the whole socialist idea, everyone being equal and not being able to notice differences in class. But in Sweden, the state of one’s teeth is an indication of social status. And if you don’t have such great means, then if you have a bad tooth, it just has to be pulled out. Whereas someone who has more money can get it capped and do all the proper work in that. So it really is an indication of social status in Sweden, just the state of one’s teeth.
Bob Metz:
Isn’t that interesting? And speaking of dental care, universal, what about health care itself? How is that done in Sweden and very similar to Canada here in Ontario? Very different.
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, in the fact that there is a universal insurance system, yes, that’s the same.
Bob Metz:
Now, having said that, does that mean you pay a premium?
Paul Lambert:
No. Well, yes, you pay a premium, like a user fee.
Bob Metz:
So you pay when you go for treatment, not on an ongoing basis?
Paul Lambert:
No, no, you pay it as you use, just the user fee, of course, it’s very small. There is private insurance allowed as well in their private hospitals.
It’s another irony of this idea of socials equalling everything out. Sweden has some excellent hospitals, especially for cancer treatment. But it’s usually for foreign consumption, it’s foreign people who go for treatment there. It’s usually out of the means of ordinary Swedes.
Bob Metz:
And yet their taxes are subsidizing a huge portion of that industry, so to speak.
And so if you were to go to a hospital in Sweden, is there a long waiting time? Do they have the same problem we have here with waiting lists?
Paul Lambert:
Yes, yes. I’ve not myself had to avail myself of that service, but that is an issue in Sweden.
Bob Metz:
And how long would it take to get, what are the general wait times now? Do they even talk about that there?
Paul Lambert:
No, they don’t tell the actual facts. What they do is each election or each new political upstart says, I want to guarantee no more than a three month waiting time. And then when the three months go out, he just complains to the newspaper, oh, there’s a violation of this great new rule I put out.
But we just know it’s more than three months at any rate.
Bob Metz:
We’re just being exposed to that brand of politics now for the first time, where instead of guaranteeing us health care, they’re guaranteeing us a spot on the waiting line.
Paul Lambert:
Well, it’s ridiculous unless that statesman is going to come down himself and give you treatment.
And he has no business promising anything.
Bob Metz:
So, given that situation, is Sweden just going on its merry way, and they’re going to leave things like that? And is there any revolutionaries over there?
Paul Lambert:
Well, in spite of what I said, it’s actually moving away from that. That’s something I want people in Canada to understand, especially in the United States. They’ve not had the same experience with socialized medicine yet. They think it’s a great idea. A lot of Americans come to Sweden and say, oh, wonderful free medicine. Free everything.
Bob Metz:
The Sicko phase.
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, the Sicko phase. But that is something that the European countries, we are moving away from. And even voices that traditionally have been very much for a socialized system have also sort of given up the towel.
Bob Metz:
Are Swedes generally aware of the debate that’s going on over here in North America about the health care thing, either in the States or in Canada?
Paul Lambert:
Not beyond things like Michael Moore and that sort of…
Bob Metz:
So they’ve heard of Michael Moore.
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, oh, yes. Oh, he’s… some people really love that gentleman.
Bob Metz:
Oh, is that right? So he’s pretty popular there.
Paul Lambert:
Well, among a certain crowd, yes.
Bob Metz:
Now, you say that Sweden’s kind of moving in the other way, meaning that they’re privatizing more insurance, allowing more options. See, unlike… Ontario, I understand, is one of the few jurisdictions that actually doesn’t allow private insurance options that compete with what the government offers.
Paul Lambert:
That’s right.
Bob Metz:
And that doesn’t exist in Sweden.
Paul Lambert:
You can buy insurance. You can… I mean, there is insurance. It’s expensive that you can get that will airlift you to an American hospital if that should be some kind of dire need you have.
Bob Metz:
Now, of course, somebody has to pay for all this. You work there. How much of your money did the government take from you in taxes?
Paul Lambert:
Well, it starts… well, I don’t want to talk personally. The tax bracket starts at 30%. That’s the lowest tax bracket in Sweden.
Bob Metz:
No matter what income.
Paul Lambert:
No matter… well, no, it’s graduated. If you make more money, they take a greater proportion.
Bob Metz:
But I mean, so 30%. There’s no… what I’m saying, there’s no exemption point. Like, you don’t pay any taxes below a certain point.
Paul Lambert:
No.
Bob Metz:
It’s right from the first dollar. Wow, that’s an expensive proposition. That’s income, too, right?
Paul Lambert:
Oh, that’s on income.
Bob Metz:
What about sales taxes? Do they have sales taxes?
Paul Lambert:
Yes, it’s a 25% value-added tax.
Bob Metz:
25%. And what about property taxes?
Paul Lambert:
They’re in the process of getting rid of it.
Bob Metz:
Getting rid of property taxes?
Paul Lambert:
Yes, there was a legal argument about that. Because, and also a practical argument, there were people who were buying houses who bought it 50 years ago when it was an inexpensive area of town, which now, after 50 years, are very central suburbs and their properties are suddenly worth more than they could afford. People have been selling their houses just to pay the tax. And so probably in this term of the current government, they’re going to get rid of property tax.
Now, it’ll likely be replaced by some other kind of fee.
Bob Metz:
Well, certainly to the degree that properties receive services from governments there locally or municipally.
Paul Lambert:
But that’s all private. Like the garbage collection, that’s all private. And you pay according to the size of the container you use.
Bob Metz:
So they’re paying property taxes even though the services the home receives are delivered by private means?
Paul Lambert:
Which is exactly what the argument they put forth in getting rid of property tax.
Bob Metz:
That sounds like a bit like our future there doesn’t it?
Listen we got to take a break now. On the other side we’ll talk about a few other aspects of the differences between the Canadian scene and the Swedish scene. We’ll be back right after this.
Station Promos (Not Transcribed)
Comedy Clip (John Stewart):
Fifty two percent of all the people in Toronto are immigrants, as though to say, so come to Toronto! Less than 50% chance of meeting anybody from Toronto.
Bob Metz:
Welcome back. You’re listening to Just Right with Bob Metz and with Paul Lambert, our guest today. If you have any comments or insights you might have to offer, it’s 519-661-3600.
Or you can email us at JustRightCHRW@gmail.com. Now, there’s an interesting comment that Jon Stewart was just making a comment on there’s fewer Torontonians than immigrants in Toronto. Canada, of course, has been a place of immigration for a long time now. Is that the same?
Before I go on to that, there’s a thing I noticed too. Maybe your accent, for example, you acquired that accent once you went abroad because I knew you before you left and you didn’t have quite that same accent. It’s like a local accent exported and then re-imported. And it’s funny that it has that slightly British sound to it. Has anyone told you that you sound like you have a bit of a British accent now?
Paul Lambert:
I’m accused of being English, Welsh, Irish. It’s probably just my experience at the Irish pub for nine years.
English is a Germanic language, just like Swedish and Icelandic are, but if that accounts for the accent itself, I’m not sure.
Bob Metz:
You’re not aware of the accent? Until somebody brings it up to you?
Paul Lambert:
No, and sometimes it slips, depends on the context. I’m slightly Irish at the pub, but I always say it’s not the British that have the accent.
You’re the colonial, you’re the one who has the accent.
Bob Metz:
Now, speaking of which, what’s the situation in Sweden regarding immigration, let’s say? Are they having the same problems as the rest of Europe or that Canada is in terms of a huge influx of immigrants? Changing the nature of the country from what it used to be.
Paul Lambert:
There are many sides to this question. Basically, the immigration has officially stopped in Sweden. There’s not such a net positive immigration anymore. In the 90s, during the problems in Yugoslavia, we took a lot of refugees during that time, and they’ve been able to go home. Even a lot of Somalians have gone home as well. But there are still a lot of them, mostly from Arab countries, who come into Sweden.
Bob Metz:
So is the immigration policy open? If I wanted to move to Sweden from Canada, for example, would I have a lot of problems doing that?
Paul Lambert:
There’s a lot of paperwork at first.
I myself went through this process. If you’re coming to a job, then it’s not a problem. If you’re married to a Swede, that’s not a problem. The difference between immigration in Canada and North America generally and in Sweden is historically, there’s always been a push to North America. People looking for something better.
I’m sorry, it’s been a pull. It’s been an attraction to North America. Sweden has been a push.
They’re running away from something and they end up in Sweden. That’s true for a lot of European countries. It’s not necessarily the first choice or last choice. They’re just running away from something much worse.
Bob Metz:
So obviously Sweden must have a high degree of what we might call civil liberties and civil rights and certain protections that they’re seeking. Is that the case?
Or would you not look at it that way?
Paul Lambert:
It’s true, certainly with regard to the countries they come from. However, these particular civil liberties, the people who come here aren’t looking for those liberties in particular.
They’re not philosophically immigrants. They’re running from a very specific concrete thing.
Bob Metz:
But then again, they wouldn’t run from their country to another one that they would regard as three times worse, you would think.
Now, while we’re on that, you work in an Irish pub now.
Paul Lambert:
I did do that.
Bob Metz:
Or you did. That must have been an interesting experience for you. Now, does that mean there’s a lot of Irish people in Sweden?
I’m looking at this thing here. Does that mean that a lot of Irish people have immigrated there? Or just that the idea of drinking green beer is popular?
Paul Lambert:
No, there’s a surprisingly large number of immigrants. They’re there for various reasons. A lot of Irish, English, a lot of French people, whenever we put a French football game on, the pub is packed with French people. I think, well, where did all these people come from? It is quite a mix in that town in particular.
Bob Metz:
Now, that’s very interesting. You had some interesting experiences you must have had working in that pub, learning about the mores of people and what’s acceptable and what’s not.
I’m not sure if this happened in Sweden or one of the joining countries that you told me about. Again, this comes back to people being friendly. You said, I think we were talking about the friendly service in a pub or restaurant. You said a lot of people wouldn’t really appreciate that.
Paul Lambert:
That’s right. We were talking that there was a young American woman who works as a waitress at the pub. She’s from Alabama. She’s very good. She gives it all the southern charm and she wants to make sure everyone’s happy. She’s wondering why she’s not getting any tips.
I told her later, I said, look, I love it. I’d want that, but it doesn’t work over here. People want to be served, then they want to be left alone. They don’t want you to ask how they’re doing. They want something else. They’ll get you and they’ll whistle or snap or do some other rude way to get your attention. But I just said, you’re wasting your time with all the pleasantries.
Bob Metz:
How did she react to that?
Paul Lambert:
She was surprised.
Bob Metz:
Do people feel more isolated or do they prefer to be more isolated? It just seems to reflect that if you don’t like that friendly approach.
Paul Lambert:
The interactions between people are a lot colder in most respects. Here in North America, there’s this idea that you have a certain personal space. You want people coming too close to you physically.
You don’t have that in Sweden. People push and shove, but when it actually comes to talking, dealing with people, it’s far more cold. There’s much more a wall of separation at that level.
Bob Metz:
That’s very interesting because you’d think it might be more the other way.
How is the situation perceived? What would you say in general about the violence and crime rate in Sweden? Maybe the police and how they react to it.
Paul Lambert:
The most objective way I can put it is just out of control. It’s absolutely out of control.
Where we live, where I live with my wife.
Bob Metz:
Maybe we should have started on that subject. What are you suggesting?
Paul Lambert:
What I’m suggesting is that if it’s out of control, there’s all sorts of violence in the street. It wasn’t always that way. When I first went there, it was okay, but it’s become worse. Just violence, rape, murder, robbery.
Bob Metz:
That’s surprising because you make it sound like as though the population has actually been declining a bit. It’s strange that the rate of violence would go up in crime. Are the police not able to handle it or is it just a lenient justice system?
Paul Lambert:
It’s a bit of both. The police advertise that we only have 12 policemen in our entire province. The police themselves had not only not drunk, not come to work, but they said, oh, we’re too drunk to work today just so they could get a day off. They get away with things like that.
I live in a very remote place, so I don’t want that to be seen as pattern. I know the frustrations of the police as well. People are let off with very light sentences.
Bob Metz:
They’re almost protesting in a personal way by doing that, aren’t they? They’re calling in sick or maybe you can call in drunk.
Paul Lambert:
That gets more to the work ethic generally in Sweden. When a third of the workforce calls in sick on Monday, there’s something going on.
Bob Metz:
What’s different now that causes the higher crime rate than was not there before? Anything to do with the immigration? Anything to do with the attitudes in the schools, not teaching discipline and values or a combination of all of it?
Paul Lambert:
It is a combination. It is just a fact that the people who are committing these crimes are immigrants. They’re not allowed to say that on the radio or in the newspaper, but they have certain code words in Swedish press. They say, oh, this suspect is from an area of town with a high level of immigration. My favorite one is a Swedish citizen has been arrested for this. Well, he’s a Swedish citizen, but of course he was born in Syria or Algeria.
Bob Metz:
That’s almost, if somebody reading it knows what that means.
Paul Lambert:
If they don’t mention he’s Swedish, then he’s a native Swede. If they mention he’s a citizen, you can deduce certain code words that get away with it.
Bob Metz:
Now, another thing you mentioned in conversation when we were just talking about the possibility of this was you came here and you hear a lot in the news about talking about money right now, that Canadian dollar skyrocketing and going through the roof and the high dollar is really hurting the country. And yet you told me you hear quite a different story about the Canadian dollar.
Paul Lambert:
Of course, it’s all relative. On the world market, the Canadian dollar has fallen from where it has been. As only the American dollar has fallen rather faster. So that’s the source of the perception.
Bob Metz:
Right. So we just hear from the, because of the states, because we trade with them most of our trade. And so does that bear upon Swedes at all? Does that mean anything to them or just keep their money out of the country, out of our countries? How much trade goes on between Canada and Sweden and North America generally?
Paul Lambert:
I couldn’t give you figures. It is substantial. I only know from from secondhand sources. Of course, working in the pub, there are a lot of traveling businessmen. It is rather brisk and I haven’t noticed offhand any lessening over the time with the change of the currency exchange rates.
Bob Metz:
Very interesting. How are Swedes about over here, the big rage right now, of course, is global warming and the sky is falling and the ice caps are melting. You guys are closer to the ice caps than we are in some ways, more northerly, at least than we are here. Is it as big a thing in Sweden or is it already old hat there?
Paul Lambert:
No, no, that’s the big buzzword again. It sort of died off until Al Gore came out with his little comedy on the silver screen a couple years ago about global warming. So that’s the buzzword again, how seriously people take it.
I don’t know. In academic circles, it’s taken very seriously, but the common man in the street, I don’t think he pays it much mind really.
Bob Metz:
I wonder if it’s really the same here. We’re going to take another break now and when we come back on the other side of this break, we’ll talk a little bit about perceptions that we have about Sweden being this neutral nation. And we’ll talk a little more about that when we come back right after this.
Comedy Clip (Michael Gelbart):
Man, it’s a scary world out there, frightening people everywhere. We see someone scary, we go, wow, I wouldn’t want to meet him in a dark alley. Yeah, and who would you like to meet in a dark alley? Rabbi Biberman, what brings you to the dark alley? I hope that knife is for circumcision.
Clip (Joey Elias): The only French I really know is I call it Saint Leonard French. And whether you’re Italian or not, you’ve run into one of these guys, I promise you. Just walking the streets. They’re the guys that came from Italy obviously 20, 30 years ago. They don’t speak English, they do speak French, but they still have that accent. You ever hear them? Hey! Why don’t you eat? Come here, we’re going to smoke the cigarette after we cut the grass.
You’re laughing, I’m going to get shot.
Bob Metz:
Welcome back to Just Right. I’m Bob Metz and I’m here with Paul Lambert who is a former Londoner now living in Sweden. Soon to move away from Sweden. Which I’ll talk about in a moment. One of the other things I wanted to bring up was this notion we always have of Sweden being the neutral nation. One of the things you cleared up with me right away was that that’s not necessarily the case. Is that right. Is Sweden not neutral?
Paul Lambert:
It’s all a matter of definition, Bob. Officially, yes, they’ve been neutral. They’ve not taken part in either of the world wars. In the current conflict in terrorism, they take a neutral stand. They haven’t really committed any troops. That’s not to say that they’re not good at getting on a soapbox in a public forum, an international forum, and give condemnations. Especially their favorite target right now is Israel, and it’s been for a long time. Swedes generally like to stand on a soapbox. I think they stand on Mount Olympus, an arrogant judgment of every other country. This has manifested itself in a way where individual Swedes themselves get involved, go abroad and get involved in conflicts of different sorts. I like to think they’re always on the wrong side. They have always taken the wrong side in any conflict.
Bob Metz:
You caught me a bit by surprise with that comment. You mean they’re soapboxing against Israel?
Paul Lambert:
Absolutely, Norway’s even worse, but Sweden jumps on that bandwagon as well.
Bob Metz:
Is that the Swedish citizens, or official Swedes?
Paul Lambert:
No, that’s the official Swedish position.
Bob Metz:
What is that based on?
Paul Lambert:
Historically, antisemitism is still very… It’s latent, but it’s still very strong in Europe. That’s always the basis of it.
Bob Metz:
And it’s strong in Sweden?
Paul Lambert:
It is. It could be just because of the large Muslim population, the politicians are trying to fawn to that idea. I’m not sure, but it is an idea that’s in them.
Bob Metz:
That’s interesting just in general. I know that according to these statistics, it said the main religion is Christianity. Is the country generally tolerant towards all religions?
Paul Lambert:
They’re very anti-religion. Not only do they not go to church, but most of the vocal voices. Of course, there’s the silent majority perhaps, but the thinking classes, the academics, the vocal classes are very anti-religion, except Islam. That’s the only good one in their books.
Bob Metz:
Even among the academics and intellectual groups?
Paul Lambert:
That’s right, yeah.
Bob Metz:
How would Sweden be on an issue like what we have over here with the whole issue of gay marriage, for example?
Paul Lambert:
That’s largely been separated from the religious aspect, except in one point, which I can get to. There’s no such thing as gay marriage by definition in Sweden or anything. Marriage is a man and a woman. If two men want to live together, they can do it. Fine, go ahead, but that’s not a marriage. You can get a civil partnership in which you have joint property.
In an economic sense, they’re married, for whatever that word is worth, but there’s no actual marriage.
Bob Metz:
They’ve had that for a while then.
Paul Lambert:
They’ve had that, I think, ever since I’ve been there.
Bob Metz:
Any movement to do what we’ve done here in Canada?
Paul Lambert:
I’m not sure what you’ve done in Canada, but what they’ve done in Sweden though is.
Bob Metz:
Basically change of definition of marriage.
Paul Lambert:
Well, the Church of Sweden, which is the official church, the Lutheran church in Sweden, there’s a big row now about allowing church weddings of gay marriage. Basically, if you’ve been against it, if you’ve been really ostracized from that church, there’s not really a room for different opinions in that regard.
Either you’re for it or you’re out of the church.
It’s really interesting in Sweden before they never had female priests in Sweden. Those who were for female priests, they got kicked out of the church. Later on, they let female priests in. Those who were still against that, they got thrown out. So there was no room for… You talk about tolerance. It’s not tolerance for a different idea. They decide we’re going to tolerate blessing to sodomites in the Holy Union.
Bob Metz:
Now, if the official… I imagine the government and the state take that kind of an attitude, more of what? Anti-religious or non-religious, I guess, not anti.
Paul Lambert:
Well, officially, non-religious. It’s not a secular state. It’s still a state church, but it is the secular powers that determine doctrine, almost, especially with regard to homosexual relations.
Bob Metz:
Going on a broader level, then, how would you describe perhaps what we might call the sense of life in Sweden? Is it a positive one? Because you’re planning to move out of Sweden now, right?
Paul Lambert:
Yes.
Bob Metz:
Tell me a bit about your thinking behind that and why you’re leaving. You’re going back to Iceland?
Paul Lambert:
Yeah, I’m going back to Iceland.
That’s where I was happiest. The sense of life in Sweden, in the broadest general sense… Of course, I can only go from my own experience, but I don’t really see what the next step is. It’s very negative. It’s very cynical. Everything is very cynical. You want to start something new. They don’t want to do that. I’ve tried my hand at business many times in Sweden. I finally have one that works, but anything is new. Anything is different. They have an aversion toward it. Even in my business now, I do translating. So few of my customers are Swedish because I’m a new face on the block. It doesn’t matter if I do a better service or have a better rate. They stick with what they know.
Bob Metz:
Now, when you say starting, you must have started a few other types of enterprises. What kind of obstacles were you running into?
Paul Lambert:
It was simply people not being interested in dealing with me.
Bob Metz:
So that’s more of a marketplace thing. It’s not like the government coming to you and saying you need this license and that license and that permission.
Paul Lambert:
There is that. Not in anything. I deliberately stayed away from industries where that would be effective.
Bob Metz:
That would be very prohibitive.
Paul Lambert:
That’s right. But it is prohibitive. It’s hard to hire people cost-wise. It’s impossible to fire people legally. So that’s very difficult as well.
Bob Metz:
So what kind of people are generally hiring translators in Sweden these days? What would you be doing mostly? Would it be a public forum or a private that you’re working in in that sense?
Paul Lambert:
No, no. While I work as a freelance myself, I have contracts with people all over the world sending me translations to do. Oh, I see. Now I stay in touch with email.
Bob Metz:
You can do that from your home.
Paul Lambert:
I can do it from anywhere in the world.
Bob Metz:
How many people are doing that? Imagine the Internet. Everyone’s online in Sweden. How about television and broadcasting? What’s generally the fare that you get on television there that you might compare to getting here?
Paul Lambert:
I’m glad you brought that up. On the commercial stations, the private stations, it’s pretty much the same as you get over here. There’s the big international hit shows.
Bob Metz:
Do they play actually North American television?
Paul Lambert:
In English, it’s subtitled. It’s texted in Swedish. That’s one reason why Sweden is so good at English. It’s not been dubbed.
It’s interesting. People don’t know this, but in nearly all European countries, you need to have a license to own a television. You have to pay $400 a year for the right to have a television in your house. That pays for the two in Sweden, the two state-run channels, which I never watch. You might like all the commercial channels, but if you watch those, you also have to pay this license for the two state channels that you might not watch.
Bob Metz:
So you have a license to own a television?
Paul Lambert:
You have to have a license.
Bob Metz:
Or does it have to be renewed at any time?
Paul Lambert:
Yes, every year.
Bob Metz:
How much a year?
Paul Lambert:
I think it works at about $400 Canadian a year just to have the right to have a television.
Bob Metz:
Just to have a TV set. And then if you want cable, you pay for that.
Paul Lambert:
Some people have satellites.
Bob Metz:
Because I knew that was the case also in England.
Paul Lambert:
Well, in England, it’s more strict. Actually, if you get caught without a license, you have to go to court and get penalized. In Sweden, you simply have to start paying.
Bob Metz:
That must have seemed very strange to you coming from North America, where televisions and radios are almost a commodity. They’re like anywhere. You can just pick one up for next to nothing. And yet being charged to have one.
What if you have two or three TVs in your home? How much do you pay for that?
Paul Lambert:
No, no, you pay for the right to have. You can have 10 TVs if you want it. You pay per household.
Bob Metz:
Oh, okay. So you’re not paying $400, 800 like that.
Paul Lambert:
No, no, you pay for the right to have access to television.
Bob Metz:
Yeah, I’m being told here we’ve only got a couple minutes left. There’s one more thing I wanted to just touch upon before we leave. Man, there are so many subjects I didn’t even get to.
If I’m a Canadian or if I’m an American, let’s say two different, if I go to Sweden, would I be treated differently? Would I be perceived differently by Swedes or would they see us as the same? You must have experienced this as a Canadian being there.
Paul Lambert:
No, it’s when you first go, I mean, to perceive, there’s always the preconceived notions. They’re not really so familiar with Canada at all. So I mean, you’d be talking about Americans and, if you go, you’re a very slim man, you’d break the mold of what they think an American is. They have the preconceived notions of Americans.
Bob Metz:So as a Canadian, you’d be perceived more as an American. They wouldn’t really make that distinction, which Canadians say is a distinction made in many other countries around the world.
Paul Lambert:
No, they think so. And this habit Canadians have of sewing a Canadian leaf on their backpacks. I mean, anyone listening, I’m telling you, that is the silliest thing in the world. People look at that and laugh their heads off. I mean, Canada is the only country that does it. So it’s maple leaf on their backpacks when they travel abroad. And people look at that and laugh at it.
Bob Metz:
Are you sure you’re looking at Canadians? Because I heard Americans are doing that to disguise themselves. To get away from the anti-American. They’d rather be laughed at.
Paul Lambert:
Well, then they’d meet the ridicule of it. To any distinction between Canada and America, that’s the only one that comes in the mind of a Swede. He sews a flag on his backpack.
Bob Metz:
Right. So really, you’re saying that it was easy for you, fairly, to integrate there, live there for a while?
Paul Lambert:
It was, but it’s not really fair, because I came from Iceland already, where the culture is sort of halfway in that direction anyway. So I was able to ease in. But it did take a while to get used to.
Bob Metz:
Well, we’ll see how this follows up. Maybe next year you might be visiting us from a different country abroad. And we’ll have you in the show and tell us a little bit about what that’s about.
Thanks for joining us today, Paul. And I know we don’t see each other regularly. You’re going to be back in Sweden, I guess, a week from now. So thanks for dropping by. It saved us the long distance call. We have you here in person, which I think is cheaper than making the call from there, right?
Under the system. Anyways, glad to have you with us. See us again next week, when we will continue our journey in the right direction. Until then, be right. Stay right, do right, act right, and think right. See you then.
Comedy Clip (Michael Gelbart):
This is my impression of every dad in the world calling their son in the house for dinner. This is what it sounded like when I was a kid. Maybe it was similar for you. Every dad in the world calling their son in the house for dinner.
Ahem. Mike! Dinner! Now! Thank you very much.
Thanks a lot. Alright, now, now, here’s every mom in the world. Every mom in the world calling their son in the house for dinner. Listen closely for the subtle difference. Ahem. Michael! Dinner! You start expecting backup vocalists to come out of the house. There’s gonna be some broccoli tonight!